Hawker Hunter crash at Shoreham

[smudge]

Could also have repercussions for insurance for the likes of the camping & viewing Farms opposite RIAT.

Ironically as CAA regulations have pushed display lines farther away from paying spectators they have moved the risk over non-attendees.  Many display venues are too small to contain the displays when high-energy manoeuvres have to conclude at least 350 metres from the crowd.

Well I say 'ironic' but this point was raised every time the regs were tightened.

[Tango Tango Fanta]

Andy Hill has flown at Portrush several times. Hope he pulls through

[ww2ni]

Some dramatic still pictures on BBC news website.
Pilot got the nose up just before impact.

[greglloyd]

There's a photo on the BBC website where the Hunter is coming to the top of the loop. At that time it has flaps deployed? I would have thought that you would be in a clean configuration when doing a loop? No flaps?

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/64FD/production/_85135852_jprowe6.jpg

[Sneaky_Nikon]

Andy Hill has flown at Portrush several times. Hope he pulls through

RV8tors?

Edit:- Reading between the lines, and even reading what's been written on the lines in some quarters, enjoy Portrush or any other show you get the opportunity to visit in the near future.

I think things are about to change, possibly quite radically.

[PortrushFCC]

There's a photo on the BBC website where the Hunter is coming to the top of the loop. At that time it has flaps deployed? I would have thought that you would be in a clean configuration when doing a loop? No flaps?

There are a number of aircraft that can use 'manouvring flap' and the Hunter is in that list, from posts on other forums I understand flying aeros in the Hunter with 23 deg flap is normal.

PFCC

[Angry Turnip]

There has been some reports in the media,and terminology used,which I can only describe as utter dung in relation to this terrible accident.

Several news outlets and newspapers seem to be obsessed that the aircraft was from the 1950`s,and that it was "attempting a loop-the-loop stunt"
The media are asking these questions,yet they are not interviewing the correct people to get the answers.

I have yet to see anyone interviewed that operates jet warbirds-possibly because they would explain that these aircraft are maintained to the highest possible standards,and that display routines flown have to be approved by the CAA,most aircraft will submit a good weather,and bad weather display routine.
The aircraft are flown by ex military aircraft pilots,and many are also qualified instructors with vast experience
Also stupid questions like "why was the aircraft flying over the road",my question would be why were the approach roads not closed during the airshow?

As mentioned by others this accident will likely have severe repercussions to the airshow scene,and I am sure there will be things that need to be looked at-I just hope there is not some daft knee-jerk reaction by the CAA.
There are only so many safety measures that can be put in place,and especially for what goes on outside the airfield/airshow venue.



Police are now saying 11 people are thought to have died.This is subject to further investigation.

[viking9]

Watch Sky News channel. This morninrg they interviewed a friend of of Andy Hill who is a former Hunter display pilot. He discussed what might have caused the accident, pointing out that display aircraft are maintained to a very high standard and that most accidents are due to pilot error.

[jasT1981]

Watch Sky News channel. This morninrg they interviewed a friend of of Andy Hill who is a former Hunter display pilot. He discussed what might have caused the accident, pointing out that display aircraft are maintained to a very high standard and that most accidents are due to pilot error.

Was that the interview with Neil McCarthy, The NJP pilot?

[viking9]

Yes.

[Sneaky_Nikon]

There has been some reports in the media,and terminology used,which I can only describe as utter dung in relation to this terrible accident.

Several news outlets and newspapers seem to be obsessed that the aircraft was from the 1950`s,and that it was "attempting a loop-the-loop stunt"
The media are asking these questions,yet they are not interviewing the correct people to get the answers.

I have yet to see anyone interviewed that operates jet warbirds-possibly because they would explain that these aircraft are maintained to the highest possible standards,and that display routines flown have to be approved by the CAA,most aircraft will submit a good weather,and bad weather display routine.
The aircraft are flown by ex military aircraft pilots,and many are also qualified instructors with vast experience
Also stupid questions like "why was the aircraft flying over the road",my question would be why were the approach roads not closed during the airshow?

As mentioned by others this accident will likely have severe repercussions to the airshow scene-I just hope there is not some daft knee-jerk reaction by the CAA.
There are only so many safety measures that can be put in place,and especially for what goes on outside the airfield/airshow venue.

Police are now suggesting 11 people are now thought to have died.

It's the what goes on outside the venue bit that's going to be problematic here and the question asked will ultimately be " Should this event have happened at Shoreham?"

The answer to which... Isn't likely to be popular on here.

This will go beyond AAIB, police & CAA investigations, we're looking at a public enquiry and I cannot see the result being us continuing with the status quo.

Looking around the forums and the like at the comments of those who organise and indeed fly displays, there seems to be an acceptance that something has to change.

The question, for us enthusiasts, is what will that be?

[Angry Turnip]

Watch Sky News channel. This morninrg they interviewed a friend of of Andy Hill who is a former Hunter display pilot. He discussed what might have caused the accident, pointing out that display aircraft are maintained to a very high standard and that most accidents are due to pilot error.

I don`t have Sky News,but I just read the report online.

Sky News are one of the ones that reffered to the "Loop the loop stunt",and called the aircraft "a stunt plane" Complete cobblers! 



Neil McCarthy, a friend of Mr Hill and a former Hawker Hunter pilot, said Mr Hill is an "excellent" pilot.

"He's a great bloke and a very, very accomplished pilot. An expert at what he does and a very, very safe pilot," he told Sky News.

"Once he left the RAF, he carried on in civilian use as a civilian pilot for an airline and has flown many, many types of aircraft for numerous years on the display circuit - an excellent pilot."

He added: "There could have been a mechanical issue with the aircraft. You just don't know.

"There's rumours flying around that there was an air space restriction at the time from Gatwick airport. I don't know. I wasn't there.

"I have displayed there before, but I'm not aware of that in the past. But we'll have to wait for the actual report to come out before we know the full details."

[Angry Turnip]

My own belief in this case it was a freak accident,very likely a one off-the fact that the roads around the airfield were not closed during the airshow does seem like a mistake,if only from the point of avoiding accidents due to drivers being distracted,or parking up to watch the action.

There has been tragic fatal accidents in so many other outdoor activities,be it motor racing,rallying,horse riding,motor cycles,football etc,but none of these things have been banned,and I don`t think airshows,or flying vintage types deserves to be banned because of what happened in this case either.

As a spectator in any sort of activity there is always a certain amount of risk involved;organisers do as much as they can to make everybody involved as safe as possible,but sometimes a freak sequence of events,that could not have been forscene will happen.

I just hope the CAA and AAIB etc look at this and see if anything does need to change,even if it`s just specific to that venue.
None of us want to see terrible events like this happen,but at the same time it should not be a signal to start banning airshows.

[viking9]

Loop-the-Loop is what the general public has called  the manoeuvre since the ealiest days of flying displays. In the TV interview Neil Mccarthy definitely discussed pilot error. From the footage I have seen the Hunter was way too low to complete  a loop from the  altitude he started. He may have intended to do a roll off the top.

IMHO this will make no difference to insurance premiums - unless the car insurers use it as an excuse to raise car premiums. I also believe it will have  no effect on air displays. In 1988  three aircraft of The Frecce Tricolori collided overy Ramstein AFB, killing three pilots and 67 spectators, 345 spectators were seriously injured.

[Sneaky_Nikon]

I don't think anyone is going through ban airshows, but I'll bet my house on the fact that there'll be changes made in the safety regulations pertaining to them.

The key point is one you touched on earlier, the accident happened "outside the wire" the dead are largely (all?) non participants and that's where it fundamentally differs from road racing for instance.

There is no hobby/entertainment/passtime that is going to cause the deaths of numerous non connected individuals in a slack afternoon and come out the other side unchanged.

I'd expect regulation on the nature of display flying (fewer hi-z displays, possibly none by non service a/c) and regulation on venues (no shows happening where the display line and overshoot areas cannot be sterilised) but that's speculation. 

[Sneaky_Nikon]

Loop-the-Loop is what the general public has called  the manoeuvre since the ealiest days of flying displays. In the TV interview Neil Mccarthy definitely discussed pilot error. From the footage I have seen the Hunter was way too low to complete  a loop from the  altitude he started. He may have intended to do a roll off the top.

IMHO this will make no difference to insurance premiums - unless the car insurers use it as an excuse to raise car premiums. I also believe it will have  no effect on air displays. In 1988  three aircraft of The Frecce Tricolori collided overy Ramstein AFB, killing three pilots and 67 spectators, 345 spectators were seriously injured.

The Ramstein crash caused the significsnt modification of display safety criteria throughout Europe.

[viking9]

But it didn't result in them being banned.

[Sneaky_Nikon]

But it didn't result in them being banned.

I don't believe anyone has seriously suggested banning airshows, a few eejits on Facebook maybe?
But as I said above, there's no way this is going to be written off as "just one of those things". 

Display flying will change.

[greglloyd]

Another angle shown here :-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34034784

I find this video particularly interesting because it shows that the aircraft was suspiciously slow at the top of the loop. The pilot should probably have just rolled out at that point and aborted the move.

As the Hunter came down towards the road you can clearly see that it is in a stall as the left wing gives way and it starts to wobble badly. At that point there was no way out.

Needless to say.. the guy operating the camera is extremely lucky to get away with his life!

[Jimi182]

After watching all of the footage it looks like the plane was too low to begin with. I just hope the pilot can recover to tell investigators what happened.

[jasT1981]

British Air Display Association statement http://www.bada-uk.com/2015/08/information-note-following-shoreham-airshow-accident-on-22nd-august-2015/

[greglloyd]

Seems that the inevitable is about to happen.......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34044383

[jasT1981]

I know people lost their lives, but this is a very knee jerk reaction. At least wait until the facts are established etc.

Would I be right in assuming the road would not have been part of the display line, or anywhere near it, and whatever went wrong caused the aircraft to be further out away from the display line? If the loop had been completed properly, no doubt he would have gone into a turn away from the road and back towards the airfield?

Looking on the map, the A27 is on the far side of the airfield a good bit away from the main runway

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Shoreham+Airport/@50.83353,-0.2906681,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x3dd527ac04e875c

[smudge]

Looking on the map, the A27 is on the far side of the airfield a good bit away from the main runway

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Shoreham+Airport/@50.83353,-0.2906681,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x3dd527ac04e875c

The Google rendering is pretty confusing as the main runway is actually the NE-SW 03-21, extending which bisects the road and railway. 

If you switch to satellite view you can see it's tarmax whereas 07-25 is grass

Edit: they've renumbered the runways since my ancient Pooleys was issued, 03-21 is now 02-20!

[greglloyd]

Some of the videos seem to show that the aircraft did not fly a straight loop. Rather it had a slight roll going on throughout the top of the move possibly changing it from the intended exit course?